http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
Personally this game is about evolution and science even if it contains very little actual science itself.
The title of this section is the [b][size=18]Science and Spore [/size][/b].

Now I am not looking to start another creation/Theist vs Evolution/Atheist threads here.

Bellow is a list of the forum Guidelines.

[quote]Forum Guidelines

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Here’s a quick rundown on what to do and what to avoid in order to help us keep the forums running smoothly.

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• Use search! Avoid posting duplicate threads about questions that have already been answered.

Behavior – Help keep the forums a fun place to discuss Spore
[b]• Keep posts relevant to the topic of Spore[/b]
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• Have a sense of humor! [/b]


Illegal Activities – What to avoid
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Thanks for abiding by our rules, we hope you enjoy the discussions on our boards.

If you notice something inappropriate posted on the boards, please alert a staff member so that we can address it.

The alert function is now active so if you see a post that is not following the Forum Guidelines please use the alert button. [/quote]

The sections I put in bold are important.

Here is the sticked post from MaxisCactus.

MaxisCactus

Developer

[quote]Joined: 09/05/2008 20:28:29
Messages: 1208
Online
Spore is inspired by evolution and scientific processes. Science buffs can post here Spore related scientific news [/quote]

here is the point I am making. This is a science section. Anything about science can be found in spore, Evolution, cosmology, Geology etc. All in simple forms mind you.

Now I like talking about evolution and that is relevant to spore. Spode is a god in the spore universe and is relevant to Spore. Real world religion is not in Spore. Thus it has no place in a scientific discussion on the Sporum science section.

If it is against the guidelines to go off topic's related to spore then I am of the thought that any injection of religion into a scientific discussion or science section make those doing it clearly in [size=18][b]violation of the rules[/b].[/size]

However it seems fear of being seen religiously intolerant allows them to get away with it.


Beyond this I am not going to talk about religion, ID , Creationism any longer.

Moving forward I will be posting links ,proof and new discoveres in the scientific feild of evolution and abiogenesis and it's real world applications.

I would ask that if any person who has a problem with these theories or thinks they are lies kindly avoid this thread. If they do not I would ask everyone who wishes to take part in this thread to avoid any and all discussion with them.

Avoid directly addressing them , ignore them and continue the conversation with those interested in actually having a conversation about the topic of Evolution or abiogenesis.

If they continue to spam the thread I will continue to report the off topic posts to SM until something is done.
If the thread is locked I will start it up again and again while completely avoiding any conversations with religious types who have an issue with the theory.

Anyway to start

[url]http://www.talkorigins.org/[/url] This is a site that has thousands of pages of information on evolution.
If someone whats to talk about a specific part of the theory of evolution go right ahead.

If you have heard about a new discovery please post it.

Keep the posts related to the Topic of Evolution , Abiogenesis or related scientific feilds.

[size=24][b]Please under no conditions start a flame war with Creationists[/b].[/size]

Don't even acknowldge their posts.

]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696520.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696520.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696524.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696524.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696525.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696525.page GMT
There should be a section for Creationists:
Creationism so they go over there and we stay here....]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696536.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696536.page GMT
It will work just fine if everyone ignores them and stays on topic.

I am not made about no more smashloc. I just want to tak about the feild of science I enjoy and that is relevant to the game of SPORE.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696538.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696538.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696543.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696543.page GMT

Thanks you very much SMBB!

Here is a link that starts anyone looking down a path to understanding Human evolution.

Give it a read if your interested it's very well done.

[url]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/[/url]]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696552.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696552.page GMT

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtmbcfb_rdc&feature=PlayList&p=0696457CAFD6D7C9&index=1[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Rlu9rWTwI&feature=PlayList&p=0696457CAFD6D7C9&index=4[/youtube]]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696611.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696611.page GMT
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x08ALWRar4E&feature=PlayList&p=4EEFD9887C6A920E&index=0&playnext=1[/youtube]

This is part 1 of 3 the rest can watched in sequence.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696656.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696656.page GMT
There should be a section for Creationists:
Creationism so they go over there and we stay here....[/quote]

Ashloc is a girl??? ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696664.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696664.page GMT
There should be a section for Creationists:
Creationism so they go over there and we stay here....[/quote]

Ashloc is a girl??? [/quote]

No I am not, However it's not relevant either. Please stay on topic I want this thread to remain open.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696666.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696666.page GMT
There should be a section for Creationists:
Creationism so they go over there and we stay here....[/quote]

Ashloc is a girl??? [/quote]

No I am not, However it's not relevant either. Please stay on topic I want this thread to remain open.[/quote]

Ha! Take that Necrons! The Goa'uld always triumph!]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696679.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696679.page GMT
Please refrain from making off-topic spam posts in this thread. If I catch you doing it again, the results will not be pleasant.

• No personal attacks: don't flame, [b]troll[/b], insult, harass, threaten, rant
• No advertising/[b]spamming [/b]]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696689.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696689.page GMT
Please refrain from making off-topic spam posts in this thread. If I catch you doing it again, the results will not be pleasant.

• No personal attacks: don't flame, [b]troll[/b], insult, harass, threaten, rant
• No advertising/[b]spamming [/b][/quote]

Aye.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696690.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696690.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696771.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696771.page GMT
Mine as well. Although there is no doubt the materials for abiogenesis came from space thats much different then how the panspermia hypothesis runs the senario.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696802.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/696802.page GMT
MaxisCactus and the rest of our underpaid spore team wants us to have a sense of humor!]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/697595.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/697595.page GMT
MaxisCactus and the rest of our underpaid spore team wants us to have a sense of humor![/quote]

I have one! I'm crying becuase of laughing! Its so funny that everyone evolutionist and creationalist seems so determined to prove a point. He's a saying by someone "People are happy to tell you about their beliefs but they never want you to tell them yours"]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/697682.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/697682.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/698263.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/698263.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/698306.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/698306.page GMT
No problem I hope you find them insightful. Long Quote ahead:

[b][size=18]Introduction to evolution.[/size][/b]

Too big to fit so here is the link:

[url]http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html[/url]

[b]
Some Books about Biology and Evolution
Futuyma, Douglas J. (1997). Evolutionary Biology. Sunderland, Mass.: Sinauer Associates.

Ridley, Mark. (2003). Evolution. Boston: Blackwell Scientific.

Hartl, Daniel L. & Andrew G. Clark. (1997). Principles of Population Genetics. Sunderland, Mass.: Sinauer Associates.

Crow, James F. & Motoo Kimura. (1970). Introduction to Population Genetics Theory. Edina, Minn.: Burgess Publishing Company.

Graur, Dan & Wen-Hsiung Li. (2000). Fundamentals of Molecular Evolution. Sunderland, Mass.: Sinauer Associates.

Lewontin, Richard C. (1974). The Genetic Basis of Evolutionary Change. New York: Columbia Univ. Press.

Gillespie, John H. (1997). The Causes of Molecular Evolution. New York: Oxford Univ. Press.

Golding, Brian, ed. (1994). Non-Neutral Evolution. Boston: Chapman and Hall.

Kimura, Motoo. (1983). The Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution. Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge Univ. Press.

Endler, John A. (1986). Natural Selection in the Wild. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton Univ. Press.

Eldredge, Niles. (1989). Macroevolutionary Dynamics. New York: McGraw-Hill.

Cowen, Richard. (2004). History of Life. Boston: Blackwell Scientific.

Dawkins, Richard. (1987). The Blind Watchmaker. New York: W.W. Norton.

Kitcher, Philip. (1982). Abusing Science. Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press.

Wilson, Edward O. (1992). The Diversity of Life. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard Belknap.

Darwin, Charles. (1859). On the Origin of Species.

Darwin, Charles. (1871). The Descent of Man.

Haldane, J.B.S. (1932). The Causes of Evolution. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton Univ. Press (reprinted 1990).

Simpson, George G. (1944). Tempo and Mode in Evolution. New York: Columbia Univ. Press.

Mayr, Ernst E. (1982). The Growth of Biological Thought. Cambridge, Mass: Harvard Belknap.

Provine, William B. (2001). The Origins of Theoretical Population Genetics. Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press.[/b]]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/698975.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/698975.page GMT
Heh heh, you just did.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/698983.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/698983.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699011.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699011.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699678.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699678.page GMT
I am not too sure about quantum physics, but quantum computing looks interesting. Instead of storing information in ones and zeros, the information is stored by differently charged electrons. The potential is for hard drives to store thousands of terabytes of information. I am looking forward to seeing if this becomes widespread ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699719.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699719.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699722.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699722.page GMT
Considering that the entire Earth was formed out of the remains of ancient supernovae etc., everything we see was once floating around in space and subject to unimaginable forces. So really, there isn't anything that a rogue comet could deliver to earth that wasn't here already. As such, I also support abiogenesis rather than panspermia.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699771.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699771.page GMT
I have less interest in Quantum Physic's. I would ask that people keep on the topic of evolution so this thread says on topic.

Thanks.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699774.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/699774.page GMT http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126946.600-unnatural-selection-robots-start-to-evolve.html?full=true

Slightly off topic but cool nonetheless. ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700124.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700124.page GMT
Slightly off topic but cool nonetheless. [/quote]

Yeah, just a bit off topic, but an excellent read! Thanks!]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700187.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700187.page GMT

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lplcRdNDcps&feature=channel[/youtube]]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700288.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700288.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700319.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700319.page GMT
Heh heh, you just did.[/quote]

HA! I know, I meant for that to happen. I'm starting to like you. Will you dress up like a hamburger and give me a Machoman Randy-Savage, "Ooooooo Yeah!"? That will just intensify the effect.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700443.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700443.page GMT
Do NOT spam in this thread and attempt to derail it.

• No advertising/spamming
• No personal attacks: don't flame, [b]troll[/b], insult, harass, threaten, rant
]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700505.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700505.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700530.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700530.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700540.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700540.page GMT ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700547.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700547.page GMT Like::::


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEBwP68FqVM&feature=PlayList&p=F5197AE1F5CF621F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2[/youtube]

or

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT4YbO_1mvA[/youtube]


But thats off topic.....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtIQvkQWTZY&feature=PlayList&p=019F146277A3EDFD&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1[/youtube]]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700572.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700572.page GMT
Creationism has been repeatedly forced to crawl back to the Descartes (argument) by asking for absolute proof which is technically impossible from the "the only thing you know to be true is what is in your own mind" thing, except if I go into his mind and... ...nevermind...]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700650.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700650.page GMT
Many people fail to realize evolution is not some clean cut line, in fact it is really rather messy and poorly planned out. Isolated groups mutate, creating subspecies, and of they change enough, they constitute being their own species, and finally if they give rise to different species and subspecies of their own, they constitute a genera. Following that further seperations will undoubtedly down the line differintiate them into subfamilies, families, possibly superfamilies, infraorders, suborders, and finally even orders.

Want an example of that? Sauropods and Synapsids have the same common ancestor. At the time that they both differentiated they were nothing more than a species apart, but gradually through constantly more radical steps in different direction through the loss of intermediate species they became vastly different - however any features shared before this divergence is still common between them. The bone structure of our hands and feet are nearly the same as that of a crocodile's feet - 5 digits. That's right - 5 digits. Additionally our brains share almost everything with the exception of one important addition that the Synapsids had - the neocortex. Everything else though - we both share.

The divergence happened some 340 million years ago right before the Permian. In fact an earlier ancestor is the amphibian, from which both the synapsids and the sauropods emerged. They're still around. Frogs. They used to be much larger though, and a dominant form of life until the Synapsid revolution.

Until the end of the permian our closest ancestors, synapsids, ruled this bloody planet, growing huge, smart, and all sharing traits. Endothermic, smart, adaptable. Then of course everything changes when the Permian comes to a violent end - something which has not been verified as a meteor, volcanism, or whatever, knocked the crap out of the planet. 90% of everything alive at that time was dead in a million or less years. One survivor is left today, and have remained pretty much unchanged since the Cambrian (500 million years). They're arthropods called horseshoe crabs. They have not changed significantly in 500,000,000 years. That means they survived every extinction event ever, and are still around today. Back to how spore sucks in evolution.

Anyways, synapsids had the unfortunate luck to have 'suprize raep' happen to their whole line, along with everything else too of course, and it was whittled down to about 4 known fossil species known. So, out of the thousands and thousands and thousands of synapsids and their varieties, three or four species made it out alive. What about the sauropods? They came through it a bit better, and gave rise to the diapsids, archosaurs, and dinosaurs, along with later on the lizards at the beginning of the Jurassic after dinosaurs and archosaurs had been around since the Triassic (lizards are reptiles, but reptiles are not lizards). So, between 320 million years ago and 65 million years ago the world was ruled by the dinosaurs. Some evolved into what we know now as birds (archosaurs) but that line also included the raptors (clever girl yAArHlgdgdGURGLE - Jurassic Park). By then (Jurassic) mammals were around, indeed one of the synapsid groups became very successful while the others died off. Mammals stayed alive, and survived the extinction event that blew out the rest of the dinosaurs and just left the birds. Now, not many people think of birds as dinosaurs, but they are.

Its a messy, messy, messy picture with the analogy of not a tree, but more of a super-tree that grows out in all directions with more dead branches than living branches. This is where Spore disappointed me severely (well, one of the ways). There's not even a simplistic sort of family tree, where you get to try offshoots, and if they do not work or you do not like them, you could go to another living relative (like lets say your Xefabbrow and your Xefabbran both came from an earlier Xefabb, and they're both living descendants). One went toward a totally pwnage based predatory line, and the other stayed unspecified and omnivorous. To change one would take more effort and maybe you just want to go with the other because you did something you liked more. So you leave the Xefabbrow and switch to messing with the Xefabbran.

Humans had four living species a relatively short time ago, and we just happened to out-do the rest. We ourselves did not go from pre-human to modern man in a straight line. There were branches, failures, subspecies, and lots of random adaptations that altered minor things until finally one was able to advance further than the rest mentally, and using technology and evolution of ideas, we dominated. I think what happened for us was that we did not change radically in any way except the ability to conceptualize things a tiny bit better, and to allow for ideas themselves to evolve.

Nanderthals, Erectus, and Florinsis did not stand a chance when we developed the concepts we would later turn on ourselves. The most violent, and predatory of the four groups was the survivor. The one that could plan further, conceptualize tools better, and move forward faster... and it was a very minor change.

Spore lacks all of these, even if simplified.

Spore makes me a sad panda.

I'd like, if during cellular, and creature, species I did not like could be failures, and I could go back to an earlier variation and take it through to a new branch. Perhaps in tribal it could even be competing subspecies of my creatures, and not all these different ones.

I'd not mind having two different civ subspecies of the same species - and end up having either a war or eventual cooperation and hegemony between them.

Of course these concepts would likely blow the mind of anyone under the age of 18... however the way the game originally seemed marketed it would have covered everyone. Teletubbies is not what I expected in September. It's what I sort of got though...]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700676.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700676.page GMT
Considering that the entire Earth was formed out of the remains of ancient supernovae etc., everything we see was once floating around in space and subject to unimaginable forces. So really, there isn't anything that a rogue comet could deliver to earth that wasn't here already. As such, I also support abiogenesis rather than panspermia.[/quote]

well actually I think that Panspermia may very well bw true because there may possibly be somthing that wasn't on the Earth yet (like the conditions on another planet may be different) NASA also sent up a space probe and when it came up they found that actual bacteria had survived the trip in space!]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700717.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700717.page GMT
Creationism has been repeatedly forced to crawl back to the Descartes (argument) by asking for absolute proof which is technically impossible from the "the only thing you know to be true is what is in your own mind" thing, except if I go into his mind and... ...nevermind...[/quote]


This isn't about creationist or creationism this is about evolution abiogenesis and related topic's]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700810.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700810.page GMT
That was a well-thought and informative post. I agree that Spore failed in the most important way, and that was in its portrayal of evolution. I bought the game specifically because of my interest in evolution and because I wanted to play God and develop life on my own little world. (please, no atheism-theism arguments. I think all of us, deep down, would relish the chance to play God, whether you believe such a being exists or not). I guess I feel a little misled by all the hype surrounding this game, but I honestly expected it to be based more on science and evolution. I mean, it was advertised as a sandbox game, not a linear game with an ending. So I expected to be able to play around in all the stages to my heart's content. I think the ultimate sandbox game would be to toy with life on an evolutionary scale, making tiny changes in each generation, ad infinitum. And I think it would be especially cool if your own creatures survived on the planet, and you competed for survival with them. You could totally populate the world with your own creations, in a tree of life similar to what exists on Earth. I also wish that the game featured world-changing, extinction events, like what we have between different eras on Earth. Oh well.

Back on topic, it should not be surprising that people of all philosophical/scientific persuasions play Spore. The game is [i]not[/i] about evolution. That should be clear to anyone who has played the game even once. I guess the creators of Spore wanted to appeal to all sorts of different people. Personally, I think that they could have accomplished much more if their evolution model was more accurate. Even creationists would have enjoyed it, I think, and maybe through creating life & watching it evolve would have worked toward convincing them that evolution is a viable "theory."]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700820.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/700820.page GMT ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701007.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701007.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701019.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701019.page GMT yeah, the game itself mirrors ID, not evolution, which is sort of sad, because they said it as based on the latter.

on an added note, and i am sorry for it being off-topic, HAPPY 3000th POST ASHLOC! i hope the ultra violent light doesn't get ya! ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701206.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701206.page GMT
There should be a section for Creationists:
Creationism so they go over there and we stay here....[/quote]


And then a "Warzone" forum section....]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701280.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701280.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701499.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701499.page GMT
Not much they can do now. Maxis made their bed now they can swim in the mountain of money from people who like simple games.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701832.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701832.page GMT
I have been wondering. If that is true, why do we have so few children?

A few possibilities came to mind. Something so complex takes alot of energy, and if the parent dies the whole process was useless. Another is that as sentients, we can then better care for the one child and it can learn more, increasing its survival chance.

Those are just my ideas. You have any?]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701928.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/701928.page GMT
Of course, that only applies to mammals (and marsupials). It has no relevance to reptiles, birds, amphibians, insects, etc.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/702009.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/702009.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/702060.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/702060.page GMT
Well in general the thread is about Evolution and Abiogenesis, However I relate those topics not in whats contained within the theories themselves but to other theories such as cosmology and geology.

I mean seriously if you take it back evolution started roughly 3.8 bilion years ago and thats a geological timescale.

There are other theories or hypothesis's like Panspermia which involves life or life building material from space so aslong as it can relate to spore in some way I am okay with it.

If a Spore master isn't then we will have to listen to them.

However inspite the title I did leave to door open for geology , cosmology and other scientific feilds.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/702136.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/702136.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/702688.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/702688.page GMT
I have been wondering. If that is true, why do we have so few children?

A few possibilities came to mind. Something so complex takes alot of energy, and if the parent dies the whole process was useless. Another is that as sentients, we can then better care for the one child and it can learn more, increasing its survival chance.

Those are just my ideas. You have any?[/quote]

that's sort of it

the basic reproduction strategies are
1 make as many offspring as possible
2 invest a lot of resouces in a small number of offspring

strategy one hopes that shear numbers will ensure survival, strategy two works on the basis that the offspring are more fit or better taken care of.


Also keep in mind that many things in evolution are tradeoffs. For example walking upright frees our hands to manipulate things more easily but to walk fully erect out pelvis could only be so wide and as a result we give birth to underdeveloped offspring because if the head was larger or the bones in the skull fully joined it wouldn't work.

so our children are extremely dependent and require a great deal of care, I'm not sure that is the reason but it occured to me as a possible reason. That sort of thing could provide an evolutonary pressure that favors human ancestors that produced fewer offspring and thus could devote more resources and time to the offspring they had. Of course to support this we'd need to look for evidence that our ancestors produced more offspring before they began to transition to walking upright.

There is also a ton of detrimental or half functional stuff that served a purpose once upon a time floating around in our genome.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/703065.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/703065.page GMT
If I was designing the game, I would've at least tried to put these features in rather than the joke they ended up with. I can understand the need for a creature creator if a user wanted to start at tribal stage or later, adn I enjoy the building/vehicle creators. What I could never understand was why you could pick and choose various parts of your creature. If they dumbed the game down to stop any religious controversy, then that is a real shame, as the game had so much potential.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/703162.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/703162.page GMT
In sim earth creatures would occasionally mutate which would then apply at a level of natural selection; if the mutation allowed them to outcompete the other critters in the environment they'd thrive, if it didn't they'd die out. The player could interject at any point and change a creature or make a new one.

THIS is how I thought space phase would play out (while creature phase essentially gave you single a creature to control to your will within certain parameters), with the creatures possessing a living ecology which you could use your superior technology to interject and play god with, resculpting the planets, their eco-system and species in the same way you did in Sim Earth and I don't see why it wouldn't have been a viable idea. ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/703386.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/703386.page GMT
For my example I will start in a creature stage senario. I will try to detail how you could have both a creative and scientific experience with spore. I am sorry if this doesn't end up in an order I am writing this kinda off the top of my head.

First give the Player 2 Styles of play.

[u][b][size=24]Freestyle Mode [/size][/b][/u]

Spore as it is now with complete creative control given to the player. This mode of play is easy and all gameplay is as Spore is currently. This would basically be the Easy mode of the game.

[b][size=18]Natural Selection Mode[/size][/b]


Player has limited control over creatures appearance


The starting form of the creature you wish to play can be player generated or random .

This Mode of play will start with the player selecting the following.

What Environment to start in, Forest, Mountain, Arid desert, swamp, Plains Etc.

Then the player can select the Creature Type : Mammal, Reptile Etc or Even go further back and start as a cell and walk it through to this point.

Traits. you can select a few traits at the beginning to give a helpful push in a direction you think might be helpful.

Once the game starts you have to begin competing with your own species as well as other species in the area.

Your goal is to Breed and pass on your genes.

You must protect your young until they reach the age of maturity and then again the selection window will open up with the next generation displayed. IN the display you can view each of the young and select the one that you think has the best chance of survival in the environment your in.

You can select which line of several randomly generated forms produced each generation.

Each of your young will have a slight difference.

After you select which offspring you wish to play you can spend, Morphology point or mutation points to make slight changes to this generations skeleton , color or even add traits that will allow you to grow new parts.

[b]Example: You want your creature to have horns, Instead of adding horns like we do now. you can add the mutation trait for horns and give a small mound on the skull. Each generation after that will begin to exagerate this trait.

This would work by entering the editor and spending these mutation points to select from a trait menu. Instead of dragging whole body parts you are selecting DNA mutations.[/b]

Now you do not have to enter the editor and can allow the game to randomly select all mutations and leave the creature as it is given when the generations are first created before you select which to play.


If you die the traits of the generation your playing are not passed on and you return to the selection process.

Your goal in [b]natural selection mode [/b]is to guide the animal through a series of generations.

Your intelligence will be influenced by diet and social interaction with your own species. As well as spending Mutation points gained through completing goals like , forming a hunting pack, defeating a rival for mating rights or other such quests.

How you react to others of your own species will determine if your a solitary or pack animal.

You will be able to fight for mating rights to pass on your genes or have to develop mating rituals, Dance or song etc.

Again you must protect your young until they reach the age of maturity and then again the selection window will open up with the next generation displayed. IN the display you can view each of the young and select the one that you think has the best chance of survival in the environment your in.

A hint menu will let you know the environment your currently in and give a recomendation of which of the offspring is best suited. However if you choose another there is nothing stopping you from moving to a new area or changing your environment.

[b]For example: Your world might go into an ice age or get hit by a comet etc and the environment will randomly be affaceted. Disease, Low birth rates etc. This mode of play will place the player in direct competion for food, mates and territory. [/b]

This is what I have so far. Ill come and clean it up later.


One your creature have achieved a certine level of intellienge your creature will be able to minipulate more in the environment. Making more complex nests or even simple tools out of sticks and branches.

the Game will continue to challenge you by making you compete with others of your own species are other species as well as environmental changes.

Once your creature reaches a certine level of intelligence you can slowly begin the transition to culture stage.

At this point your able to teach more advanced skills to your offspring such as how to use simple tools or make nests. As your creatures continue to evolve and use more complex commands and teach skills the game will expand its menu of options.

Your intelligence factor will allow your creature to become aware of more things such as the change in seasons and when herds of animals you hunt or plants you eat will be in abundance. Becoming more successful at timing these changes you can then start to make shelters and more complex tools to hunt and or gather food.

Once your creature starts hunting and gathering you have not technically entered a primative form of tribal mode.
[u][b][size=18]
TRIBAL STAGE[/size][/b][/u]

Now your goals onlt slightly change as the options expand. Now you can play out a generation that evolves slower because the time scale between these generations will slow.

Now your species is about to form more cohesive parties and small nomad bands that have limited ability to hunt and kill animals for food and clothing as well as find and gather stockpiles of food.

You can secure mates now by either competing with dominate males or through acts of social interaction or a combination of factors. Where in creature stage you would fight for mates or compete through ritual now the ritual is more about what you can offer a mate.

As your species becomes more dominate on the planet and spreads out you might encounter others of your kind who have reached this stage. Battling for territor or reasources or cooperating will guide your species towards a form of Culture mode.

Again the transition is smooth and I am unsure now how I would set the prereqs for what counts.

Likely population. Once you reach this stage of play you can become a settled species and form a culture.

[u][b][size=24]Culture MODE[/size][/b][/u]

Reasources will become availiable to your species and now you can select both new skills(techs) and minor mutations. Again in this stage the passage of time has slowed.

Culture mode will allow your race to start designing more complex buildings and tools and weapons.
Also in this mode you will start to take on the roll more like city stage. You are no longer playing just as a pack leader or cheif you are a king or other form of leader.

At this stage you can select an option to add a cultural discription.

This stage will also allow you to select a few more options.

for example:

Culture Type: When you open this menu it will show you the recomended type based off your style of play so far.
Or you can select another and redirect your races culture in a new direction.

Culture types could be , Religious, Industrious, Warmongers, Philosophers etc or a combination of three in order of importance.

If you select a religion you will be given the option of taking a premade template or Writing the details of your own and then selecting from a menu option you want to influence your religion.

Example: Does your religion practise sacrifices or not, Does it believe in multipul gods etc.

Culture stage will end when your Species reachs an industrial revolution. Once this happens you enter Nation Stage.

Nation stage is much the same but more complex and opens up more options again.

I am trying to keep this ordered well but I am going to stop here for now and try to flesh out some details.



Note: At all points in the game your race continues to go through small changes and challenges such as environmental,disease etc. You are able to enter the editor and make minor changes still.

At some point of advancement your race will master genetics and you will be allowed at this point to make sweeping changes your race( maybe)
]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/703968.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/703968.page GMT WHOA! you should have been part of Maxis! that's a great idea! can't wait to hear more! ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/703983.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/703983.page GMT
Sadly, it is not to be. They will never make something so sophisticated or complicated. We must turn to other developers. And now that Will's gone, Maxis will slowly move away from the complication that first created SimCity and sims 1. ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/704009.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/704009.page GMT
I am pretty sure if I was skilled enough with programming and wealthy enough I could with my own personal knowledge of evolution make a game much more challenging and interesting.

Of course I would hire people to make it for me and consult with actual biologists and other related feilds to evolution.

Unlikely I will ever have the reasources to do something like this though.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/704217.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/704217.page GMT
I am pretty sure if I was skilled enough with programming and wealthy enough I could with my own personal knowledge of evolution make a game much more challenging and interesting.

Of course I would hire people to make it for me and consult with actual biologists and other related feilds to evolution.

Unlikely I will ever have the reasources to do something like this though.[/quote]

No harm in it at all. In fact, I would think it can only help. What we need is a dedicated programming team.

Whatever became of [i]Evolutions[/i]? I thought they were trying to get some programmers on board to actually make it. I don't program very much anymore, so I couldn't help.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/704325.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/704325.page GMT
I am pretty sure if I was skilled enough with programming and wealthy enough I could with my own personal knowledge of evolution make a game much more challenging and interesting.

Of course I would hire people to make it for me and consult with actual biologists and other related feilds to evolution.

Unlikely I will ever have the reasources to do something like this though.[/quote]

No harm in it at all. In fact, I would think it can only help. What we need is a dedicated programming team.

Whatever became of [i]Evolutions[/i]? I thought they were trying to get some programmers on board. I don't program very much anymore, so I couldn't help.[/quote]Evolutions was a hoax]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/704347.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/704347.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/705475.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/705475.page GMT
I know that. Hence my post. Had you read it, you might have realized I meant that after it was proclaimed a hoax, an effort was made to get some programmers together for the purpose of creating it.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/706113.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/706113.page GMT
Not much they can do now. Maxis made their bed now they can swim in the mountain of money from people who like simple games.[/quote]

Well we all bought so i guess thier tactic worked

And they r proably going to sell off all the things they promised us in the form of expansions so they make even more money, I would proably buy expansion

]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/708203.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/708203.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/708752.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/708752.page GMT
your welcome to your opinion, even if I don't share it.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/708834.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/708834.page GMT http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/biologists-on-t.html

scientists are very close to creating life from scratch]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/709446.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/709446.page GMT
The problem I have is you don't really have control of much other than aesthetics. I can't really affect how the game plays much, the different paths are really similar. Also the mods available are still an utter joke because the game is hard to mod in meaningful ways]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/709467.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/709467.page GMT
Well but...

I can't say I've played a lot of video games in my life, but compare Spore to a game such as Zelda (my all-time favorite game, by the way). The Zelda games have a very linear course with a very definite ending, and you can only reach that ending by following that very linear course. With Spore, space stage for example, you could terraform or blow stuff up, depending on what you like. Essentially, you can set your own goals. Of course, the game certainly doesn't have the variability that real life does, but it's just a game, and it's the first Spore. And I like that I can play as a dragon. ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/710415.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/710415.page GMT
Well but...

I can't say I've played a lot of video games in my life, but compare Spore to a game such as Zelda (my all-time favorite game, by the way). The Zelda games have a very linear course with a very definite ending, and you can only reach that ending by following that very linear course. With Spore, space stage for example, you could terraform or blow stuff up, depending on what you like. Essentially, you can set your own goals. Of course, the game certainly doesn't have the variability that real life does, but it's just a game, and it's the first Spore. And I like that I can play as a dragon. [/quote]

play more games, alot more games. You aren't nearly as free as you think.

if you like freeform playstyle try uh... GTA III

really there are tons of games that give you a lot more mechanical freedom, Spore is mostly a game about customizing avatars.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/710706.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/710706.page GMT
What is the definition of life?

I favor Schrodinger's definition, that life lives on virtue of metabolism. It counters entropy by "displacing" entropy into its food.

And here is a problem with the definition of species, too:
A parasitical bacterium has been found (nevermind where) that cannot reproduce without a human being. It acts much like a virus, by injecting DNA and proteins into a human cell and taking over the genetic machinery. It is not, however, human. (If it were part of our species on the basis that it required us to reproduce, then virii would not be separate species, either.)
When would it become so? When it could no longer live alone? (Take the chloroplast, for instance.)
This is not human, despite that it requires human beings to reproduce (the supposed definition of a species is "a population that can breed only with itself"), because it literally metabolizes human beings. It displaces the effects of entropy into our cells. The Mitochondria, which is part of us, is only part of us as a species (though it exists in others, but with different variations in its DNA, and it certainly cannot reproduce with other species' mitochondria) because it allows us to displace the effects of entropy elsewhere.
A species is a population of individuals that without at least one of the others, it could not continue to metabolize.

So to say, life (and I mean the thing, not the situation) is built on hard work and effort. But that's a side issue. (Or rather, metabolism and the definition of life and species is a side issue of how life involves hard work and effort.)]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711157.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711157.page GMT currend defnitions basicly say fire is more or less alive ..... but you can say it's not (this is a problem as looking at fire you could see a totaly alive energie only live form ........ but we currendly rather say it's impasble for live to be energie only....)

but is this type of live alive

imagen this
a scout probe is sent to a planet it that turns out to be unable to return do to a to hight level of gravity it that goes to step 2: reproduce it's race of origen is now whiped out but the probes continue with the order of repoduce

as a probe will make mistakes while reprograming the next generation (let's say 1 mistake each 10 gb ) we would have some kind of evolution perhaps goign to end up having a complex ecosystem but it are still robots "are they alive"? when does a machine become alive?

this is pretty hard ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711237.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711237.page GMT currend defnitions basicly say fire is more or less alive ..... [/quote]

Ah, yes. I forgot to mention the thing about fire.
Fire is not synergetic or metabolic. It swallows its food, but does not truly digest.
Fire is merely the act of entropy. It is the act of an imbalance in energy turning into a balance of energy. Fire does not displace entropy, it IS entropy.
One argument for Evolutionism in its earlier days (this one happened to be quite a bit off,) was that water freezes into something more orderly: the snow flake. Saying so is like saying that water becomes more complex when freezing. Yet it doesn't. Crystallization is the removal of energy from the crystallizing substance. Yet metabolic processes feed energy into the metabolic substance. ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711267.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711267.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711295.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711295.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711422.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711422.page GMT
"The Protein Phase", "The Enzyme Phase" etc... and people complain the end product didn't have an ocean phase =p]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711471.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711471.page GMT
well i would say it went more or less like this:
1 a very complex molecule becomes a prion
2 the prion forms a stronger wall around itself now it's not a prion anymore and it continues towards the next stage ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711573.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/711573.page GMT
well i would say it went more or less like this:
1 a very complex molecule becomes a prion
2 the prion forms a stronger wall around itself now it's not a prion anymore and it continues towards the next stage [/quote]

You have no need of such a wall except to "break and enter" a host, which a prion doesn't need to (due to its size and ability to masquerade), or to hold in water and metabolic products, which a prion doesn't need to do that, either.
A prion is a dead-end life form. You don't have many options with just a protein.


EDIT: Also, life did not start with proteins. That's an old theory.
It most likely started with one of three things:
Clay minerals.
Metabolic sacks of random chemicals (some amino acids, but no proteins just yet.)
RNA or an RNA like molecule capable of self-catalyzing. (Strong possibility, as they have created TNA and PNA, two molecules that talk to RNA and act a lot like it but are easier to form. They have also found that nucleotides can be created in certain mineral solutions. That, and they have almost created the first artificial lifeform...an RNA molecule capable of self-catalyzing.)
Or possibly multiple or all of the above evolved and merged to form our tree of life.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/712311.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/712311.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/712441.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/712441.page GMT
How very optimistic.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/712479.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/712479.page GMT
How very optimistic.[/quote]

I'm a bundle of joy.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/712519.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/712519.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/713141.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/713141.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/713161.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/713161.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/713180.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/713180.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/713190.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/713190.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/713196.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/713196.page GMT
You have been helpful in keeping this thread on the right track and for that I thank you.]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/721962.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/721962.page GMT http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/724637.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/724637.page GMT Panspermia is an actually plausible idea. At a speed of 60 km/s, it would take 11.875 years to travel 10 light-years. The ]]> http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/734079.page http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/preList/26157/734079.page GMT