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Sporum Town Hall: Improving Communication Between Moderators and Community  XML
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DarkMagickan


GalacticGod

Joined: 01/30/2014 22:49:08
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LMSargent wrote:I know people have said that Sharples was given no warning that the perma ban hammer was looming, but do we know that is true? I haven't heard from the SMs or Sharples on this either way.


This is just how it appears to me. The reason I can believe it so easily is that Slime gave me a seven day ban without warning during the whole "b*******s" fiasco.

Twice.

The first time, I admit I was pushing the envelope, using a banner with (dramatic sting) that word on it. But the second time, I was recounting how EropsToad was banned for an entire week with no warning. It seems to be Slime's policy to swing that hammer first and warn later these days.

CaptnSunny


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Joined: 07/20/2013 02:54:00
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SporeMasterMobsterMania wrote:
chantal71 wrote:
That's what I'm afraid that I'll get banned for. My posting style is, for the most part, to make fun of whatever I can single out. Even if I make it obscure enough to try to get it past Slime, I'll still get the boot for being off-topic.

Regarding Reblon's post, he must've gone from BigRedBoat to BigRedBot.


That said, unless you post here to raise a concern or provide constructive input, with no additional sarcasm, I suggest you steer clear of this thread for your sake.


Quoting this:

alexbiri wrote:But please remember. It's not s**tposting as long as you're being ironic. Some of the best parts of this forum are made breaking the old forum rules. It's clear that this is no longer the forum it used to be. We all know eachother, we can make jokes. As long as i'm not hitting your dog with a shovel, friendly trolling should be tolerated.

I think it's what made people like Chantal famous in the Sporum.



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Infernette


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Joined: 11/06/2009 01:42:10
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Just to add, Sharples had no idea he was going to be hit with a rotation ban. He was just as hocked as you all are that they are back in existence.


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SporeMasterMobsterMania


Multicellular

Joined: 01/20/2016 01:02:23
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Infernette wrote:Just to add, Sharples had no idea he was going to be hit with a rotation ban. He was just as hocked as you all are that they are back in existence.


My hope is that he will be the last permabanned member. Our promise now is to warn users with enough notoriety that they will be permabanned if they do not reform.


Infernette


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With how disjointed a torn up the moderation system appears, and how it seems to be deciding on things without announcing them or amending the guidelines, I have no trust in anything you say, to be honest. Slime won't even answer any of my questions that I put to PM. Or in the thread. Just deflections to an irrelevance like me saying that these issues needed to be discussed.


This place is a mess user wise and moderation wise.

I'm quite impressed.


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SporeMasterSlime


Spore Master

Joined: 11/11/2009 18:27:38
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Infernette wrote:With how disjointed a torn up the moderation system appears, and how it seems to be deciding on things without announcing them or amending the guidelines, I have no trust in anything you say, to be honest. Slime won't even answer any of my questions that I put to PM. Or in the thread. Just deflections to an irrelevance like me saying that these issues needed to be discussed.


This place is a mess user wise and moderation wise.

I'm quite impressed.


When I'm not anwering it's because I have nothing to answer.
You suggested that I learn a scripting language to remove the hundreds of e-mails/PMs sent to me by sharples instead of banning him. I don't really know how to answer that.
You suggested that the users and the moderators should have a reliable bond. That's not very easy when the users spam, troll, post inappropriate messages and blanket spam the forums for years. So I don't know what to say to that either.
The problem of the sporum has never been the moderation, but the users, specifically repeat offenders who don't understand that being part of any forum isn't a right, it's a privillege. Once again I urge you to check out any normal forum out there and spend a month or two. When you come back you'll realize we've been ridiculously lenient.

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DarkLord979


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Joined: 09/07/2012 15:07:15
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I also think a post like this can be quite scary:

SporeMasterSlime wrote:
Infernette, what you are saying is very misinformed and highly hypocritical. First of all, let me say that we never "decided" as Sporemasters to stop suspending Sharples and Darklord every week. Kyle just decided that we should let them back and announced his decision to me. There was never an admin guideline or a discussion on this matter. Secondly I don't appreciate receiving 200 e-mails (PM notifications) in my inbox. Thirdly, we don't really need a reason to ban sharples. You don't even know how much time we've wasted on him all these years (fyi his first main account was permabanned back in 2011, just to give you an idea).

I'm sure he'll keep buying creature creator or Spore to return to the forums, because apparently he has nothing better to do. Also let me tell you that in another forum if a user does 5% of what sharples has pulled over the last years he would have been IP banned from the beginning.

Also, if the last two paragraphs are a threat, then I have no problem adding you to the list of rotating bans. I never backed down because of threats in the past and I'm not going to start now.


I'm going to remain respectful but I do think this needs to be seriously addressed. This post (which was on a thread that has been removed overnight) basically states one of two things:

1. Slime says he doesn't need a reason to ban people

2. Slime threatened to perma-ban Infernette, who has never even been banned before. And who committed zero rule infractions throughout the duration of the thread.

I am afraid of perma's because I know they will be abused. Not because I want democracy or consent or anything like that. They will be used as a tool for butting out people an SM doesn't like. We can already see it in this post.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 05/01/2016 15:14:30


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CaptnSunny


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Joined: 07/20/2013 02:54:00
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SporeMasterMobsterMania wrote:
Infernette wrote:Just to add, Sharples had no idea he was going to be hit with a rotation ban. He was just as hocked as you all are that they are back in existence.


My hope is that he will be the last permabanned member. Our promise now is to warn users with enough notoriety that they will be permabanned if they do not reform.


Wait, Sharp was permabanned?

...huh.

Adieu, Sharples.



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DarkLord979


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Another thing. I know that if this was "any other forum" there would be harsher punishments and what-not, and most of us would be banned already. But I would like to point out that this is not "any other forum". This is the Sporum. The Sporum has evolved differently than most online communities and I think an SM needs to have the ability to work with that. The Sporum is not just a place to discuss spore, but has become a gathering or a textual Skype for some people. Plus, there are so few official spore-related communities out there anyway. Sure there are those Google+ communities, but those will likely die out in time while the Sporum has the ability to rejuvenate itself when people buy the game.

I'm not saying we need total democracy. I'm not saying we need a community vote when someone gets banned. What I am saying is you can't compare us to other forums on the Internet or go by their rules. This is a much different forum and has a much different culture. I know that it is hard for SMs like Slime to understand that because he has distanced himself so far from the community. I think this is mostly because he cannot understand our sense of humour and takes it as "trolling" or spam. But the reason I like the new mods is that they can easily distinguish a jokester from an actual community menace. Slime can't.


And one more thing. The admins never gave SMs the permission to perma anyways. So keep that in mind. And seeing as we have an admin now, I think only he should be allowed to issue perma bans. Just my opinion though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/01/2016 15:27:00


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Infernette


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Joined: 11/06/2009 01:42:10
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SporeMasterSlime wrote:
Infernette wrote:With how disjointed a torn up the moderation system appears, and how it seems to be deciding on things without announcing them or amending the guidelines, I have no trust in anything you say, to be honest. Slime won't even answer any of my questions that I put to PM. Or in the thread. Just deflections to an irrelevance like me saying that these issues needed to be discussed.


This place is a mess user wise and moderation wise.

I'm quite impressed.


When I'm not anwering it's because I have nothing to answer.
You suggested that I learn a scripting language to remove the hundreds of e-mails/PMs sent to me by sharples instead of banning him. I don't really know how to answer that.
You suggested that the users and the moderators should have a reliable bond. That's not very easy when the users spam, troll, post inappropriate messages and blanket spam the forums for years. So I don't know what to say to that either.
The problem of the sporum has never been the moderation, but the users, specifically repeat offenders who don't understand that being part of any forum isn't a right, it's a privillege. Once again I urge you to check out any normal forum out there and spend a month or two. When you come back you'll realize we've been ridiculously lenient.


You have the mindset of you against everyone else. How do I see that? Well, for one, you're acting like the users are a bunch of nut cases with no self control and are a bunch of savages, and you and your moderation team are the civil people coming to free these uncivilized folks from their own degenerate society. Seems a bit familiar....well anyways, the scripting was a "ps" to my actual complaints list, such as how disjointed the moderation team appears and how things have been made up on the spot with no approval or notice.

Secondly. Your little "condescending" tone that you are taking with me. I'll have you know I am a mod on a few sites. Not just that, but I am an admin of a 900 user strong site, with about as many "active" people as there are on the sporum. And the rules? Basically nothing, yet the users handle themselves fairly well and without any issues. Not just my own experience, but on multiple sites I am a respected veteran user for as long as I have been on the sporum. None of them are quite as strict or do they treat the moderation as above the regular users, as what is clearly going on here. Moderation posts and acts just like regular users do, no issues, and the mods are just as willing to discuss a photoshop thread of potato animals as they are serious mod conflicts. And there are barely any issues or ban problems, and this site only bans once and you are done, but is gracious with the warnings and mod edits. They accept that people make mistakes and as such over time your warn level fades. Each infraction disappears within six months. Works perfectly.

So, now then, what is wrong with the sporum? Maybe it is an attitude problem that is causing this. The mods versus the users. It isn't leading to a healthier community, that is for sure. Yet there you are, acting like we are all insane and out to get you, when most of us can boast a clean track record. Dark brings up a good point, you're already willing to ban me and have me set as a criminal in your mind, when I have done nothing wrong during my presence here.

If wanted I can post the content of the PM that I had sent, and the "responses" that I received.


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SporeMasterSlime


Spore Master

Joined: 11/11/2009 18:27:38
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Internette, you are free to post the PMs we exchanged, although I think it would be meaningless. Again I don't really have an answer to your post so I'm not going to.

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Infernette


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Joined: 11/06/2009 01:42:10
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Firstly, Sharples has requested I post this for him:

The fact that MobsterMania seems to be okay with rotational bans seems to only lie with the fact that Slime did it. They have seemingly forgotten the previous rules that were implemented and have decided to join on Slimes side. If anything, I was not even warned of a rotational ban. In fact NONE of the SporeMasters thought I deserved punishment at the time I did it because I already bought an account that was not tied to Sharples65. Only when Slime did the maximum possible suspension is when Mobster went onto their side. Slime obviously has some sort of revenge towards me.

I know that 2011 is long gone, but what I do remember is that SporeMasterSlime resigned from SporeMaster position and posted on the WarmSlime account. In fact during then he barely did any moderation and left it to Slyth and Blackbird to deal with. 2011 was when I was posting constant flash and topics of which I haven't done since 2014, when I protested with Darklord against Slime. Heck if anything the Sharples65 account SHOULD of had a clean sheet to it. Slime and a few others seem to think I can constantly buy more and more C&C accounts. This is not the case at all. Just because I used trail alts in the past doesn't mean I would spam the Sporum with accounts. The last C&C account I bought before the McBoat one was never. In fact it was a Spore account, named Sharples65. I have also NOT made a trail account since 2011.

Slime doesn't need to agree to any of the SporeMasters others decsions, THATS WHY the town hall thread was made. Because frankly the SMs don't want to SPORE off Slime. In fact the last time I was suspended on the Sporum was two months ago, over an argument between me and Infernette/Darklord. No seven day bans since then, just an outright ban from Slime.

So if Slime really thinks I would buy more accounts or anyone else for that matter, you're seriously wrong. It was only to make Infernette happy. AND ONLY THAT.

Since the SMs have pretty much come to a decision regarding my ban, in saying that Mobster wants me to the last perma-ban, I might as well give up now. Because obviously the past year and a half has meant nothing to contribution when it comes to five years ago. In fact do they even know what I've done for this community? :/


I'll go grab the content when my phone allows, it seems to hate the text on the sporum.


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SporeMasterMobsterMania


Multicellular

Joined: 01/20/2016 01:02:23
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Infernette wrote:With how disjointed a torn up the moderation system appears, and how it seems to be deciding on things without announcing them or amending the guidelines, I have no trust in anything you say, to be honest. Slime won't even answer any of my questions that I put to PM. Or in the thread. Just deflections to an irrelevance like me saying that these issues needed to be discussed.


This place is a mess user wise and moderation wise.

I'm quite impressed.


If this post is directed to me, then I will reiterate that this is our goal; to re-establish trust by making rules, intentions, and decisions clear with the community (since this was apparent not the case in years past). Maybe this will clear the clutter of misunderstanding. As Slime stated, however, this is not easy. Since he has moderated longer than I have, he has probably grown less tolerant of repeat offenders who will not listen to your demands to stop spamming and trolling. And as Kyle as mentioned, that is at the very least, quite rude. So I suggest that everyone who has gotten suspended/warned before to think before you post. Is this necro REALLY necessary? Do I NEED to get into this argument? Is this obnoxious word ESSENTIAL to my OP-related argument? SHOULD I really post this low-effort thread in Science and Spore. Could I bring my intended off-topic discussion to the Open Thread or off to Steam chat?


On our side, suspensions should never be used as a weapon or threat against dissidence (provided it stays within the guidelines). Dark cited how you, Slime, threatened to permaban a user with a clean slate. Regardless of whether this was due to bad wording or genuine intent, I think SMs should never take this course of action. If someone wants to dispute a ban, they should do so without being written off as "not respecting Sporemaster decisions." Of course, if their method of dissidence involves breaking the rules like spamming, then disciplinary action is tolerable -- but only because the actions were against guidelines, not because it challenged the Sporemaster decisions. Hopefully this thread will contain such disputes from spilling out into the Sporum. In addition, if in a debate either the SM or user feels that further discussion/argument about a dispute is meaningless, they should make their intent to cease discussion explicitly clear. If a challenging user is clearly not understanding why his buddy's flash spam isn't against the rules, we should stay "Your buddy was causing grief to our users with flash spam, and has been suspended twice already for this rule. I will not discuss this further." The silent treatment is okay, but it shouldn't coming without warning.

----

In response to Sharples' post:

Believe it or not, I have believed in permabans even before this. Some users will simply refuse to be conducive members and frankly, they deserve this severe punishment as a last resort. I will reiterate and say it should not be used frequently. While you definitely haven't been a vile user at all recently, and even contributed to the community (your concerns over the 0 plays bug, and contacting Maxis staff) that doesn't cancel out your past infractions. As you probably know, nothing disappears on the Internet; this includes reputations. Maybe you shouldn't have spammed at all in your years here. Period. It has put you on very thin ice, and it has finally shattered.

By the way, you can still talk to Sporum folk on SS, Steam, and the chatbox. Being permabanned does not cut you off from your friends here.

------

All things considered, it's evident both the users and SMs have some work to do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/01/2016 16:32:53


Awdred


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That's what I'm trying to figure out right now.

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DarkLord979 wrote:First off let me thank you a million times for making this thread. This is what I've wished for for years. Second,

Petition of the Perma
It was stated long ago that the age of perma's was over. Everyone makes mistakes. I, and many others, vehemently oppose the idea of a permanent rotating ban. If a rotating ban is truly needed, it should be a month or two at most. And these kinds of bans should not be quickly thrown out but should be carefully thought over and voted upon by each of the SMs. And if these wishes are not met and a perma is in fact still going to be used now, it should not be a common concept and should be restricted to users who have done something so outrageous that it cannot be contained by any other means of punishment. Examples of this could be hacking (with evidence). And it should also be voted on and carefully thought over.

However, it is still my greatest opinion that the permabans should never be administered. And anyone who agreed with me may post here and say that they want to be added to this and I will add them to this petition:

Petition Signers
DarkLord979
shroober-1
Reblon
DOGC_Kyle
I agree that rotating bans shouldn't be used. However, I'm not against all permabans. There's a reason admins have the 10,000 day ban. I'd have no problem with Baza permabanning an individual, provided there was a good reason, but I oppose rotating bans like this.

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DireSquidGuy


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SporeMasterMobsterMania wrote:
Infernette wrote:With how disjointed a torn up the moderation system appears, and how it seems to be deciding on things without announcing them or amending the guidelines, I have no trust in anything you say, to be honest. Slime won't even answer any of my questions that I put to PM. Or in the thread. Just deflections to an irrelevance like me saying that these issues needed to be discussed.


This place is a mess user wise and moderation wise.

I'm quite impressed.


If this post is directed to me, then I will reiterate that this is our goal; to re-establish trust by making rules, intentions, and decisions clear with the community (since this was apparent not the case in years past). Maybe this will clear the clutter of misunderstanding. As Slime stated, however, this is not easy. Since he has moderated longer than I have, he has probably grown less tolerant of repeat offenders who will not listen to your demands to stop spamming and trolling. And as Kyle as mentioned, that is at the very least, quite rude. So I suggest that everyone who has gotten suspended/warned before to think before you post. Is this necro REALLY necessary? Do I NEED to get into this argument? Is this obnoxious word ESSENTIAL to my OP-related argument? SHOULD I really post this low-effort thread in Science and Spore. Could I bring my intended off-topic discussion to the Open Thread or off to Steam chat?


On our side, suspensions should never be used as a weapon or threat against dissidence (provided it stays within the guidelines). Dark cited how you, Slime, threatened to permaban a user with a clean slate. Regardless of whether this was due to bad wording or genuine intent, I think SMs should never take this course of action. If someone wants to dispute a ban, they should do so without being written off as "not respecting Sporemaster decisions." Of course, if their method of dissidence involves breaking the rules like spamming, then disciplinary action is tolerable -- but only because the actions were against guidelines, not because it challenged the Sporemaster decisions. Hopefully this thread will contain such disputes from spilling out into the Sporum. In addition, if in a debate either the SM or user feels that further discussion/argument about a dispute is meaningless, they should make their intent to cease discussion explicitly clear. If a challenging user is clearly not understanding why his buddy's flash spam isn't against the rules, we should stay "Your buddy was causing grief to our users with flash spam, and has been suspended twice already for this rule. I will not discuss this further." The silent treatment is okay, but it shouldn't coming without warning.

It's evident both the users and SMs have some work to do.


100% agreed. As much as I've come to like the Sporum, it's not without its pitfalls, and I am not exempt from my own (thankfully) half-aborted flames; Not that I did them intentionally. Sometimes they occurred either because I said something wrong, or it could be because someone else did. It's human nature to make mistakes and have miscommunications. Not a single one of us is perfect.

However, judgement is a key aspect that we must ALL exercise: Sporum-Users and SMs alike. If you've caused or created an offense, multiple times and have been warned multiple times (even up to the a longer ban, if Spode-forbid it to be necessary), one can only blame one's self ONLY if they've been warned every time, with timely fashion.

We're all here together, and it could understandably cause unease (and that's putting it nicely) if SMs choose to not communicate, and work in silent absolutes. Police are certainly "the law" to their community, but they too are obligated to work under the law and never violate what they have been sworn to uphold (Spare a thought for Alex's buddies turned abusive cops, in "A Clockwork Orange", and how they unfairly and unjustly brutalized him without even a warrant or valid reason to execute such unethical brutality. Granted, Alex was playing the entire system the whole time, but my point still stands.). It only makes sense that, every time, a SM must give some reasonable explanation why they have to do something, if at least showing that they are working under the rules they uphold, within reason (and not under extreme prejudice, or personal grudge/bias).

However, I am not a SporeMaster. What you SMs do to help keep the Sporum orderly and friendly is your conscious decision.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 05/01/2016 17:01:17


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