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Poll
Disclaimer: topic counts as political science, therefore valid.
Okay. 63% [ 56 ]
I'm a whiny baby. 37% [ 33 ]
Total Votes : 89
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Mavor


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Torture, hmm, tricky. I find torture to be abhorrent. But, I could see advanced interrogation techniques being of some use for a very short time span under certain conditions. Let's say that for the first 24 hours that you can wail on the guy if you suspect he has information about an imminent terrorist act. Break out the drugs, the thumb screws and get out the mill stones and strappado ropes. But at 24:01 it has to stop. And the use of these methods would need to be highly monitored to say the least. With a full scale PUBLIC investigation after each incident. Accompanied by some kind of stiff penalty if it yields nothing of value. Otherwise it could unexpectedly turn into a Spanish Inquisition.

DarkMagickan


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There IS the tiny problem of the fact that most people will tell you what you want to hear under torture, truthful or not. In fact, I seem to recall reading about just such a phenomenon in Salem, Mass. a few centuries back...

Now here's an interesting question. War crimes. Who decides what's fair and what isn't when two countries are bombing the SPORE out of each other? It would seem to me that fighting"fair" gives a clear advantage to the country with the most soldiers and the best toys.

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DarkMagickan


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Pardon the double post, but...

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Mavor


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DarkMagickan wrote:Now here's an interesting question. War crimes. Who decides what's fair and what isn't when two countries are bombing the SPORE out of each other? It would seem to me that fighting"fair" gives a clear advantage to the country with the most soldiers and the best toys.


What do you mean who decides what's fair. It is the victor of course. And they decide on a case by case basis. That is why Joseph Mangila was hunted down as a Nazi War criminal for experimenting on concentration camp victims. Yet the members of Unit 731 (imho, Unit 731 made the Nazis look like amateurs.) went right back to their civilian lives. Meanwhile the US had stockpiles of nerve gas positioned in the Pacific to gas Japan. A clear violation of the Geneva convention. But didn't even receive a slap on the wrist. Why? Because the victor makes the rules and writes the history.


Interesting side note, the nerve gas was keep in place until the 1980's. No doubt with the thought of war with China. It was only disposed of when the containers were in danger of leaking. Phillips Petroleum was contracted to build a huge incinerator to dispose of it. And it took 2 years to get rid of it all.

dounttron


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tldr


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DarkMagickan


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Mavor wrote:

DarkMagickan wrote:Now here's an interesting question. War crimes. Who decides what's fair and what isn't when two countries are bombing the SPORE out of each other? It would seem to me that fighting"fair" gives a clear advantage to the country with the most soldiers and the best toys.


What do you mean who decides what's fair. It is the victor of course. And they decide on a case by case basis. That is why Joseph Mangila was hunted down as a Nazi War criminal for experimenting on concentration camp victims. Yet the members of Unit 731 (imho, Unit 731 made the Nazis look like amateurs.) went right back to their civilian lives. Meanwhile the US had stockpiles of nerve gas positioned in the Pacific to gas Japan. A clear violation of the Geneva convention. But didn't even receive a slap on the wrist. Why? Because the victor makes the rules and writes the history.


Interesting side note, the nerve gas was keep in place until the 1980's. No doubt with the thought of war with China. It was only disposed of when the containers were in danger of leaking. Phillips Petroleum was contracted to build a huge incinerator to dispose of it. And it took 2 years to get rid of it all.
Exactly my point. What chance do smaller, less powerful countries actually have? If they stick to the Geneva Convention, they lose. If they violate the Geneva Convention, they lose. It's ridiculous.

Mavor


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DarkMagickan wrote:Exactly my point. What chance do smaller, less powerful countries actually have? If they stick to the Geneva Convention, they lose. If they violate the Geneva Convention, they lose. It's ridiculous.


No, the point is, IF they violate the Geneva convention AND win, then they get to rewrite the convention so that they didn't violate it. And rewrite history to show why they were justified to do that.

If they lose, then they are at the mercy of the winners.

Wait, are you advocating that smaller countries be allowed to commit wide scale atrocities so as to make "war" fair? Really? You want to make war fair? So if Luxembourg attacks France, then France is only allowed 450 people to defend itself, so that it is fair to Luxembourg?

Or are you saying that you are unaware of treaties like NATO, SEATO, and others were small weak nations band together to mutually defend each other? Because that is what they do. And have done for thousands of years. And they seem to be pretty effective at stopping people like Hitler, Napolean, Gengis Kahn, George Custer.

DarkMagickan


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Mavor wrote:
DarkMagickan wrote:Exactly my point. What chance do smaller, less powerful countries actually have? If they stick to the Geneva Convention, they lose. If they violate the Geneva Convention, they lose. It's ridiculous.


No, the point is, IF they violate the Geneva convention AND win, then they get to rewrite the convention so that they didn't violate it. And rewrite history to show why they were justified to do that.

If they lose, then they are at the mercy of the winners.

Wait, are you advocating that smaller countries be allowed to commit wide scale atrocities so as to make "war" fair? Really? You want to make war fair? So if Luxembourg attacks France, then France is only allowed 450 people to defend itself, so that it is fair to Luxembourg?

Or are you saying that you are unaware of treaties like NATO, SEATO, and others were small weak nations band together to mutually defend each other? Because that is what they do. And have done for thousands of years. And they seem to be pretty effective at stopping people like Hitler, Napolean, Gengis Kahn, George Custer.


Neither. But here's the thing. You yourself said, the big guys don't follow the rules, and they just gloss over it when they win.

My point is, war is not, by definition, fair. And sure, NATO and the rest have a fair amount of pull. But supposing you're the leader of a country that isn't part of one of those countries? And a large country has declared war (notice I'm not naming names...) and is publishing lies about you on the Internet? (Again, strictly hypothetical, and I do mean hypothetical.) If this hypothetical bully country controls most of the media in the Western Hemisphere, you're screwed.

Mavor


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Sorry, I can not agree. While it is not going to be an easy task, the little guy has just as good a chance at winning as the big guy. History is replete with examples. And I'm more than happy to name names: USSR and Afghanistan, USA and Vietnam, China And Japan (Sino-Japanese war 1894/5), all the way back to Persia vs Sparta. And there are any number of examples of small rebel groups overthrowing established governments with much larger and better equipped professional armies. That is not to say that the other way round doesn't happen (Russia and Ukraine), but it is not a given that the little guy is going to lose just because the other side appears on paper to be more dominate.

As far as publishing lies, what is new about that? You can't watch half the cartoons produced during World War II anymore because of the terrible stereotypes that are in them. This thing is so common that it has even been given its own name: Propaganda. And it has been around since at least 515 BC. It is just another weapon in a country's arsenal. Used effectively it demoralizes the enemy and boosts the troops. It's effectiveness is only as good as those that implement it. And even the small countries can do that. That is why John Wayne just couldn't overcome Hanoi Hannah.

And I didn't say the big guys gloss over the rules. I said the winners do.

BTW, My favorite bit of propaganda was this:
The female announcer — nicknamed Baghdad Betty by U.S. servicemen — tries to shake morale. One major reports hearing her declaim, “G.I., you should be home.” Why? Because “while you’re away, movie stars are taking your women. Robert Redford is dating your girlfriend. Tom Selleck is kissing your lady.” “Bart Simpson is making love to your wife.”
Reported widely in 1990 newspapers, it turns out it was US propaganda used to make our troopsand civilians feel better by painting a poor picture of Iraqi forces.

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DarkMagickan


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Whomever. When it's a larger country (or alliance of countries) that wins, they decide.

Mavor


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DarkMagickan wrote:Whomever. When it's a larger country (or alliance of countries) that wins, they decide.

I just gave 4 examples of the smaller guy winning. It's not really much of a debate when your rebuttal just ignores the opposition, and you merely restate your position as a response. But then I guess that is what passes for debates today. Mindless drones repeating a chant loudly to drown out differing viewpoints. And then burning down a Starbucks.
I'm not real sure how the burning down of a coffee shop exactly fits into it. But it does seem to currently be a vital part of political debates.

dounttron


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It's traditonal. That's how ideology's always been debated.






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Mavor


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dounttron wrote:It's traditonal. That's how ideology's always been debated.


While still a little thin, even this is a better debate response than before. At least you are trying to establish as fact that there is a history of violent conflict in debates. Of course it is complete hyperbole, as most of the time two or more countries debate and agree to any number of matters that constitute international relations. Trade deals, border disputes, and sovereignty issues are usually worked out by different concerned groups. They simply do not receive the attention a war does. Second, your premise tries to mix apples and oranges. Debate is specifically designed to allow all parities to present their case and try to sway others they are correct. Ideology however does not leave room for debate. One or both sides have only one position and are unwilling to alter it, no matter how compelling the evidence or rhetoric that is presented. When issues like this (or soccer games) occur, violence is usually the outcome and another Starbucks dies..


The most violent soccer incident ever occurred in 1969 between El Salvador and Honduras. Some 3150 people died as a result of a dispute over a playoff game. And an additional 300,000 Salvadorans were displaced.It was also the last conflict that officially used The Whistling Death.

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dounttron


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[/joke]

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eme12


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trump is a meanie racist poo poo head and i hate him and he smells bad and he ugly and his hair look CRAY CRAY and i bet he uses the restroom in his underwear and he is so just not nice and i do not like him and tha t uis why he shouldnt be our president and if you disagree ayou are a meanie racist poo poo head and i hate you and yuouu smell bad an d you ugly and your hair looks CRAY CRAY and i bet you use the restroom in your underwear and you are so just not nice and i do not like you



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